What happens when sexuality, spirituality, and psychology collide? In this thought-provoking episode of Plot Twist Radio, host Erin Egnatz sits down with depth psychology coach and author Deborah Lukovich to explore Carl Jung, the unconscious mind, midlife awakening, relationships, feminine and masculine consciousness, and the hidden forces shaping our lives.
Deborah shares her deeply personal journey from a 24-year marriage and midlife unraveling to pursuing a PhD in depth psychology and writing her bold memoir, When Sex Meets God. Together, Erin and Deborah dive into Jungian psychology, spirituality, sexuality, trauma, self-reflection, patriarchy, consciousness expansion, AI ethics, relationships, attraction, archetypes, shadow work, and what it truly means to awaken to your authentic self.
This conversation explores:
• Carl Jung and the unconscious mind
• Midlife crisis vs. midlife awakening
• Feminine and masculine energy
• Spirituality and sexuality
• Relationships, attraction, and archetypes
• Healing trauma and embracing vulnerability
• The psychology behind identity and self-discovery
• Patriarchy, culture, and modern consciousness
• AI, ethics, and the future of humanity
• Finding meaning during life transitions
Deborah Lukovich is a depth psychology coach, speaker, and author who helps individuals and organizations uncover unconscious patterns, navigate conflict, and foster conscious dialogue. Her work combines Jungian psychology, spirituality, and personal transformation to help people better understand themselves and the world around them.
If you enjoy conversations about psychology, spirituality, Carl Jung, self-discovery, philosophy, human behavior, relationships, consciousness, or personal growth, this episode is for you.
Where to find Deborah:
#CarlJung #Psychology #Spirituality #MidlifeAwakening #DeborahLukovich #SelfDiscovery #JungianPsychology #Consciousness #Relationships #ShadowWork #Podcast #PlotTwistRadio
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Welcome to Plot Twist Radio, the show where creativity,
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storytelling and the unpredictable path of the
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creative life all collide. I'm your host, Aaron Egnatz.
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Hi, Deborah. Welcome to the show.
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Well, thanks for having me. Absolutely.
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Before we get going, can you tell the audience a little bit
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about yourself? So Oh well, that's a can of
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worms. So I am a depth psychology
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coach. I actually say that I am a
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facilitator of collective insight and conscious dialogue.
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So this all started when I had a midlife falling apart.
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And right before it all fell apart, I felt this, felt this
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irrational calling that communicated via this logo for
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the school. And at 48, I went to go pursue a
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master's PhD in this mysterious field called depth psychology,
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which is the study of the unconscious.
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So if people are familiar with Carl Jung, he's one of the
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founders of the study of the unconscious.
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So that's what I do. And I work with individuals and
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organizations anywhere where people are stuck and they need
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help seeing what is happening at the unconscious level.
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So in a workplace or an organization or an initiative, I
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love conflict. So I love helping people
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understand that all the stuff is beneath the surface of your
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awareness. So how do we shine a light on
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it? And then suddenly it's like, oh,
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I don't really hate you. This is what's happening.
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So OK, let's go solve this problem together.
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That sounds extremely important and probably something each and
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every one of us needs. Oh, absolutely.
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Especially during these times, so.
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Yes, 100% I I'm sitting here thinking now I wonder what's
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going on with me. Yeah, yeah.
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Well, I remember the moment in school because my midlife
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unraveling coincided mysteriously, thankfully, with,
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like, pursuing this education. So I lived all these concepts in
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real time. And one day I was like, Oh my
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God, I can't even trust why I do anything.
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Like I have no idea what this hidden agenda is of what I'm
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doing. Very.
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That is a very interesting science.
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I've always found all kinds of sciences, especially psychology,
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so interesting because there's so many different facets of it
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and you don't realize it when you start looking into it.
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Yes. And then the more that saying
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about like, especially like pursuing a PhD, the more you
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know, the more you realize you don't know.
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So then it's like, oh man, I'm going to be studying myself for
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the rest of my life. Absolutely.
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So you say you never intended to write a memoir.
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So what was the moment where you realize, OK, now is the time I
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need to do this? Well, like during my SO I'm
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pursuing this education and at the same time I had already like
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made the decision to leave my 24 year marriage.
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So I went through all of that processing to give myself
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permission, like I could release me.
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So it was after that, but then I started having all these strange
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experiences and they were all with men.
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They were all with younger men. And I'm like, I don't know
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what's happening to me. And the experiences were so
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strange, I had to talk about them.
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So I went from being very like professional, never really
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talking, nobody knew my vulnerability to just like I had
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to share these odd experiences and many people were intrigued
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and I started referring to my life as like a Netflix series.
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So it was just like, Oh my gosh. So at some point I knew that
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that was sort of the first inkling, like I am a living
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Netflix series. And then I didn't.
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I was led to my research topic and my research topic was
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exploring women's experience of reconciling sexuality and
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spirituality. I didn't even know I had a sex
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and God wound and it just emerged.
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And then I studied it and it was through Young's theory of
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individuation. And it was like mind blowing.
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And I thought I had another moment where it's like, I cannot
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be the only person and woman who's like having this
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experience, but I happen to have have this framework to help me
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find the meaning in it. And so then I just knew at one
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point I would write a memoir. And then the funny moment was it
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was like Christmas, December 20th, 2019, and I finished my
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final changes to my dissertation.
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I sent it off to my committee. And then that next week I
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literally was like, Oh my God, I have to write about all the
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stuff that wasn't appropriate to put in the dissertation.
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And out came 50 words of all my experiences.
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And then I set it aside and then it was a five year period,
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actually a more synchronicities that led me to an online writing
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community where I learned how to tell a story.
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So I turned it into a story. And it's so part of it was like
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just these moments. I was like, this is so crazy
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what's happening to me. I don't know.
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It's entertaining, it'll entertain people.
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And then I was like, no, this is important too because I'm not
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the only one who's experiencing this thing during this time
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where we are. So yeah, so that's how it
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happened. I.
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And I agree with you, you're not the only one going through it.
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And that's something that I think a lot of us overlook
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because we always talk about like the adolescent years and
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how they're very difficult years.
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But honestly, as I'm getting, I turn 40 next week, as I get
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closer to it, you know, this seems in a lot of ways just as
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challenging as puberty did. It's just a different change.
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It absolutely. And Carl Young, you know, his
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work was is more than 100 years ago and he talked about midlife
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and he would say and I think it's still relevant actually,
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but it's not as much about an age as it is a shift, right.
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And so he would say like 35 is like when suddenly the shift for
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some happens for some it's later.
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And it has to do with, like, the first part of our life, we are
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building an identity. And identity is what our ego
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likes to be in charge of, right? But it's a good thing.
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Like, we have to build an ego because when we were born, we
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didn't have one, right? We didn't know we are separate
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from the mother. So then there's this period of
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separation where like, OK, this is me.
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This is how I fit into the group.
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And then what happens over time is things get entrenched and
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then sometimes there's a moment and for some people it's
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dramatic. For me, I was very stubborn.
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I talk about in Chapter 1 is like that first little thing
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that happened where I was like, huh, oh, I don't like the way
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that feels. And then I kind of was like, oh,
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I can't deal with that. But I went on to like, I found
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yoga and I learned how to meditate.
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And I didn't know that I was ultimately preparing for 10
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years later when everything had to fall apart to get my
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attention. My business fell apart, my
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marriage fell apart. All the sudden there was
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alcoholism. I was like, where did that come
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from? And my middle school age son was
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like, I don't want to live. And like, I couldn't hold it
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together, and I had to allow myself to fall apart.
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So for other people, it maybe is more subtle.
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It's like, yeah, I used to want that mansion.
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And now I'm like, I look at him like, I can't even make myself
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get excited about things like that anymore.
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So then people will respond to that moment in different ways.
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Some will go inward and others will go outward.
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And these are the people who, like, suddenly are obsessed with
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marathons or they're obsessed with something or they use
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substances or, And a healthy thing can become a dark thing if
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the underlying issue of finding meaning in your life isn't
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really addressed. So yeah.
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And then my particular topic of sexuality and spirituality has a
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really bigger meaning. You know, right now it's about,
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like, reconciling the ultimate opposites, which are the
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feminine consciousness and the masculine consciousness, not
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meaning man or woman, meaning styles of consciousness.
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Right. And that's happening outside,
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but it starts in the individual. So my book also without because
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it's told in story format, but at the end are lots of questions
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about like what is the deeper thing that I'm tapping into that
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is connected to the collective of what's happening out there
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that is. Very interesting, and I have to
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say the title is extremely interesting.
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When sex meets God, it's bold. What does that intersection I
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guess really mean to you? Yeah, well, I do a short video
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on like, where did that title come from?
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Because it sounds like yeah, sex and God meet up in a bar and
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then what happens It is actually they get together and what
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happens. So you know it is well, I came
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of age in the 80s so and in the title, by the way, it can't.
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I was still in school and I was like 1 sex meets God.
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It never change it just like right there because it is about
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these archetypal energies. So Carl Jung suggested that the
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two most powerful instincts, human instincts, are sex and
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religion. Religion not being doctrine, but
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religion being the search for meaning.
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Why am I here and sexuality now? And so it would make sense that
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they're so intense that they would somehow have a
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relationship with each other, right?
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You could also say sex and God represent, you know, heaven and
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earth, spirit and body. So it are is these opposite
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forces that are trying to reconcile now.
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For me personally, I came of age in the 80s.
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So the 80s was interesting because it was empowering.
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Like that's when the first women were becoming partners in law
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firms. 80s were finally it wasn't even until 1982 raping
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your wife was illegal in all 50 states.
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Lifetime cable network brought consciousness to domestic
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violence. There was record numbers of
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women running for office of winning Thelma Louise alien,
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Sigourney Weaver, like all like it was an unleashing from the
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collective unconscious. Betty Friedan's book help women
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see that they weren't alone and feeling depressed right about
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like, oh, this is all my life is about.
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And so it was an empowering time.
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But at the same time, because I was like, Oh yeah, I'm going to
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go have sex just like men. I could be a slut too.
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Like, like it was just this obnoxiousness, right?
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And at the same time, just like there is today, there was
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backlash. So women like me were called
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sexual deviants and home wreckers and like, and at the
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time I thought, whatever. But you don't realize that you
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absorb, right? You absorb these messages.
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And even though in my marriage, I thought I was being
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unconventional, like my husband and I walked ourselves down the
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aisle. I'm like my dad.
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My dad doesn't own me. He's like giving me to my
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husband, right? And so I thought I was
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approaching marriage in an unconventional way.
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But at the end, I realized how I had still adapted and he wasn't
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quite, didn't have the same vision of pioneering gender
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roles that I did. So it was just interesting.
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So, and, and then what's fascinating in relationships is
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that we think we know why I, why I married my husband, for
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example, 24 year marriage, I loved him.
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So I wasn't one of those women who were like, oh shit, I made a
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mistake. No, I loved him.
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I'm like, why would you ever get divorced?
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Right? But when it all fell apart, I
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realized that part of why I was drawn to him was that I had
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chaotic relationship and sexual experiences because of the
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nature of the 80s. And the week before I met him, I
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was like, I hate men. I'm done.
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And then, boom, he showed up. And I'm like, yeah, I'm just
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having fun. And then eventually, three
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months later, I was like, you know, he's a good man.
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Like, I think about it now. I'm like, he's a good man.
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That's why I married him. He's a good man, right?
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But it was like this representation, I guess, of
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safety and respect. And I did love him, right?
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But so it wasn't until everything fell apart that I was
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like, oh, but there is this other hidden agenda and I was
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trying to stay safe in a situation that overtime was
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constraining for me. So that's kind of, you know, the
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the deeper meaning of what does it mean when sex meets God?
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So part of my, you know, reconstruction after falling
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apart was reconciling this inner opposition between sexuality and
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spirituality. And one that happens, you have a
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creative unleashing, not just a baby.
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And one of my passions is helping people understand the
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deeper meaning of sexuality. And attraction and arousal is
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usually not the desire to have literal sex.
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You're attracted just something that your unconscious is saying.
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I want that for you, that traits that whatever.
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So there's a lot of misunderstanding about like, you
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know, what does that mean? That I'm attracted to somebody,
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or that I'm sexually aroused because I can get sexually
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aroused by ideas? And I've heard that a lot, you
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know, but that makes sense. It's something that, you know, I
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guess I've never really thought about, but as you say it, it
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really makes sense. I I have a question because you
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talked about a little bit with the society.
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Why do you think society is so uncomfortable with these two
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ideas, especially when they're together?
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Oh gosh, I mean that even that's complex.
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So I mean, there's a really great book called Sacred
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Pleasure by Rhian Isler. She's a system scientist and
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she's has a bunch of other titles too.
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She wrote Chalice in the Blade back in the 90s, which was like
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very earth shattering about how patriarchy had trained us to
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see, for example, archaeological digs to automatically apply this
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men's ideas instead of really being open to what is the truth.
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We don't really know for sure what that cave picture is, but
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we're making assumptions about it.
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So she, if you're really interested in like how we got to
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this place where pleasure is demonized basically, right.
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Well, the way that I explain it is that patriarchy wasn't just a
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evolutionary natural thing. It was something that really
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grew out of scarcity conditions. So think about it.
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When there's scarcity and there's not in much, not enough
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people turn on each other for self preservation, right?
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So based on migration patterns, this sort of scarcity was
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brought got to other areas of the world where there wasn't
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scarcity, but now there was a kind of aggression and sort of
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this attitude that was so there were I there were partnership
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models of society and tribal and Native American, right.
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So people who say no patriarchy was this natural evolutionary
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urge. That's not really that's not
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really true. So then that as that spreading,
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we have the beginning of the creation of doctrine of
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Christianity right now. Another really great book called
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the Redemption Women and Redemption is about how feminist
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voices were at the beginning of how do we write the story of
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this thing just happened with Jesus, right?
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It just like that happened over decades, right?
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And so you have this thing, the social sociology thing with the
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scarcity mindset, and then you have this repression of the
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goddess and replacing it with, and they kind of collide is how
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I put it. And so Jungian psychology, death
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psychology takes this really head on And, and what happens
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then is that the feminine, the goddess is given a backseat.
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It's demoted, which doesn't make sense, right?
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Because of God is everything and Mary is the mother of God.
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Hello, people. The Bible even says that, right?
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Why is it now that you know? So the the the feminine, which
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then gets projected, instead of it being part of everybody
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consciousness, it's projected onto women as a gender and a
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biology. They're bodies, sexuality and
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nature. And all of those things become
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inferior to this masculine style of consciousness.
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And the masculine style of consciousness in and of itself
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is just neutral. But when it's not checked right,
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checks and balances by the feminine and it just gets to run
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roughshod. It can't it becomes one sided.
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So that's why, you know, the idea of, let's say capitalism is
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a system of patriarchy and by itself, if it's balanced and
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regulated, it spurs innovation. But if it's one sided like it is
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now where all the guardrails are gone, we have late stage
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capitalism, which is very bad, right?
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And so that's kind of how I explained like at a really,
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really, really big level, what's happening.
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And there is kind of a global thing happening right now.
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So there's this reckoning and there are systems that have
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become corrupt because of this one sidedness.
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And I would also say that this is a time when women need to,
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they don't need to, they can do what they want.
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Where it's helpful to understand that patriarchy isn't about men
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anymore because if you look in the population of men, there's
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even a hierarchy in ranking within men.
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Poor men inferior, black men inferior, gay men inferior,
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right? And so patriarchy artificially
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elevates this idea of a particular kind of man.
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So men have a patriarchal wound too now.
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So I do speaking and I help women honor their patriarchal
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wound, which is healed by taking your power.
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And we are not oppressed anymore.
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Some women are, but overall we are not oppressed.
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So stop letting people tell you you're a victim and holding
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space for men's patriarchal wound because the only way that
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they heal it is by redefining strength as the power is the
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strength to be vulnerable. That's almost harder.
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Think about it. There is research by my friend
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who research that shows that good men, quality men who
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believe in equality, overestimate the sexism of their
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own friends. So instead of being like, just
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boldly feminist, which there are more of course, than there used
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to be, they will. They will minimize it to fit in.
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So here their friends are less sexist than they think and he
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could be more feminist and they'd be like Oh my God I'm so
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glad you said that. I'm a quality man too.
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So This is why I say like men are harmed by patriarchy too.
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I could see that absolutely. And, you know, I I'm a
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historian, so I love to analyze the different, you know,
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civilizations and as we go forward.
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And I'm like picturing the different decades as as you're
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talking, I'm like picturing it. And you know, we have evolved a
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long way, but there is still room for improvement, a lot of
00:19:03
improvement, especially as you said with the end stage
00:19:05
capitalism that man that hit the nail on that.
00:19:08
Yeah, yeah. I mean, Oh my gosh, I have a
00:19:10
client who works in AI. Holy crap.
00:19:14
And she's, I mean, she channels Artemis energy.
00:19:17
So she is here for a reason. But like the dysfunction, the
00:19:22
toxicity, the I mean, lack of morality and ethics.
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And, and she's part of like women.
00:19:30
Well, women can be just as bad as men these days.
00:19:32
So equal opportunity, right? But women and ethical I, I like
00:19:37
she's all part of, she's part of that countering because you
00:19:40
can't just give in, right? And the fact that there's such a
00:19:44
rush to hoard and a rush to exploit is an indication that
00:19:50
that time is ending. So people think like, Oh my God,
00:19:54
there's nothing. No, no, no.
00:19:55
It's an indication that there is consciousness expansion is
00:19:59
happening because all of those negative forces, they're just
00:20:02
trying to get there as well they can.
00:20:04
Absolutely, AI scares me. I I like it for some things but
00:20:07
it scares me overall. Yeah, but and the good thing is
00:20:10
that, you know, luckily we have, you know, in the last five
00:20:14
years, we have this whole media ecosystem that has emerged to
00:20:20
counter the indoctrination, right, the exploitation.
00:20:24
So people are much more aware. And surveys are showing that
00:20:28
especially in a, in our, in our country, if you're in the US,
00:20:32
that people do not like AI. So they're not buying into it
00:20:36
like they thought they were going to.
00:20:38
So it's just interesting. So, you know, I'm driven by Carl
00:20:42
Jung's suggestion that the fate of humanity depends upon the
00:20:45
self reflecting individual, and there is a lot of self
00:20:48
reflecting going on these days. There really is.
00:20:50
And that's important. That's extremely important.
00:20:53
I could, I could talk about that forever, but we will go back to
00:20:59
your book because I have a question.
00:21:01
You were saying that it could be a Netflix.
00:21:03
The way it plays out, have you ever thought about pitching it
00:21:06
to them? Yeah, I don't know how actually.
00:21:09
I don't let. Yeah, I just, yes.
00:21:11
I mean, I'm kind of counting on like it will kind of happen
00:21:15
because I'm going to tell everybody about it and I'm
00:21:17
counting on the universe just giving me little clues like it
00:21:20
did for how to write the books. But like I one of my passions is
00:21:25
also Jungian film theory. And so I experience life.
00:21:30
I'm also INFJ, an introverted intuitive feeling, judging
00:21:33
person. So I'm like a rare, the 3%
00:21:36
neurodivergent. What nerdy, whatever.
00:21:39
I experience life as a movie. Like I experience it that way.
00:21:43
So the whole time I'm writing this book, I'm like, this has
00:21:46
got to be read. Like you could see this is a
00:21:48
perfect episode for the series. And I think it could be like, it
00:21:52
could be be a movie, but I think it would be trying to accomplish
00:21:54
too much. But I mean, I could see it as a
00:21:57
series. So yeah.
00:21:58
So, you know, if you know where to direct me to like, you know,
00:22:02
do that without needing to come up with $25 myself.
00:22:06
But I'll, I'll take I'll take the go talk to this person.
00:22:09
Go talk to this person so. It kind of kind of like a Sex
00:22:12
and the City type, you know what I mean?
00:22:14
Like series, not obviously the same thing, but you know, the
00:22:18
same target market and whatnot. So.
00:22:20
Well, I'll send you a couple. I've been doing these videos
00:22:22
goes as a way to help, you know, get people to buy my book where
00:22:25
I just take a random chapter or a clump of chapters and I talk
00:22:29
about like the deeper thing that's happening, the theme, the
00:22:32
depth psychology part of it. And I have a series of chapters
00:22:36
that were that are the romantic chapters.
00:22:39
So there was this Oh, oh, is that guy like flirting with me
00:22:43
like after like, and he looks kind of young and like what
00:22:46
happens with that? And then when he falls off the
00:22:48
face of the earth, I'm like, Oh my God, now I need that online
00:22:51
dating here I come. And all of the men were like, I
00:22:54
was 50. All the men were 33.
00:22:56
And I'm like, what is up with this number?
00:22:58
And it wasn't until like 2 months ago there I was like, oh,
00:23:01
that is my new, my numerology number 33-OR/6.
00:23:06
Whoa, I just found that out. And so, and then so I go through
00:23:10
these series and I write about it because it was thank goodness
00:23:13
I was studying deaf psychology. I would have never done this
00:23:16
right? And like, Oh my God, this is
00:23:17
almost like a curriculum. The each one of these ten men
00:23:21
came in a particular order. And the meaning of that was like
00:23:25
helping me come into deeper relationship with my body and
00:23:28
sexuality. And then I was like, OK, I'm
00:23:29
exhausted. I'm done.
00:23:30
And then I'm like, I got to work on getting into the PhD program
00:23:33
and then here, here comes this man on the beach.
00:23:35
He's the one that I get swept up in this archetypal Hermes
00:23:40
Aphrodite, like what is happening to me and who am I
00:23:43
becoming? And he's 33 too.
00:23:46
And then this is where the spirituality comes.
00:23:48
So we're dating for like 6 weeks and I'm like I've never felt
00:23:53
this like I was like what is happening to me?
00:23:57
I never felt the passion and then right when I'm like what
00:24:00
are we going to like have sex? And he's like, I have a conflict
00:24:03
having sex outside of marriage. And I was like, what?
00:24:06
I was devastated, but I still was like, this man, he still has
00:24:10
this draw for me. And then I entered this new
00:24:13
world of what I described as no sex sex.
00:24:16
And it is that. And it is just being being with
00:24:20
him and then later on being in solitude that brought me
00:24:23
experiences of pleasure that I could never have with an actual
00:24:27
human being. And so that led to that led to,
00:24:31
you know, this whole exploration and re exploring my childhood
00:24:36
religion, which I would reject again, but knowing why, but
00:24:40
seeing the duck psychology and it all.
00:24:43
And so this is how like my I don't know whatever I was led
00:24:48
and it came in an order where I first sort of healed the sex
00:24:52
wound and then there was the spirituality wound.
00:24:55
And then it was like, Oh my gosh, these two get together.
00:25:00
And then out of that comes a book and another book and a
00:25:04
podcast and a new mission and all of this.
00:25:08
I mean, it's worth it. Like the individuation process,
00:25:12
that's what it's called. I mean, you have to have a sense
00:25:15
of humor. You have to be curious.
00:25:17
You cannot self judge because you learn everything you've ever
00:25:20
done in your life makes perfect sense when you understand your
00:25:23
psychology. And it is so worth it if you
00:25:26
want to experience life in a deeper way.
00:25:31
Absolutely. I I think I need to come see
00:25:33
you. I mean, I am also fun to work
00:25:37
with. I could tell I.
00:25:38
Do a lot of acting out. And that's great because I think
00:25:42
maybe that's just how I learned, I don't know, but I, I just feel
00:25:45
like you would be perfect so well.
00:25:48
Thank you. Yeah.
00:25:49
So where can the listeners find you?
00:25:52
Deborahlukovich.com Everything is there, so it's DEBORAHLUKOV,
00:25:59
ich.com, and at the top are all the colorful icons for my
00:26:04
YouTube channel, my LinkedIn, my Instagram, my blue sky,
00:26:10
whatever. I write blog posts.
00:26:12
I do a lot of free content and if people subscribe to my
00:26:16
website, like my book before this one was your soul is
00:26:22
talking, Are you listening? It was my first step psychology
00:26:25
book. So I teach people all the
00:26:27
different ways you're unconscious of speaking to
00:26:29
through your emotions through conflict, conflict, conflict.
00:26:32
That's all you got to love conflict and friction because
00:26:34
it's the doorway to everything. But it's hard to.
00:26:38
So if they subscribe, they can get a free download of that soul
00:26:42
book. Then you just get it for free.
00:26:44
And I also read all the chapters for free on my podcast.
00:26:47
So it's just I have my YouTube channel is kind of like I do
00:26:51
videos to explain lane things and here's what you can try.
00:26:54
And because I I kind of like, I like inspiring and teaching and
00:26:57
empowering. And then also I'm for hire too
00:26:59
so. There you go.
00:27:02
So everyone check out the show notes.
00:27:04
I will have her links there. Thank you so much for joining
00:27:07
me. Thank you.
00:27:08
Take care. Thank you.
00:27:09
You too. Bye, OK, bye, bye.