Author Michael Wendroff joins Plot Twist Radio to discuss his debut thriller What Goes Around, the realities of modern publishing, and the art of building suspense that keeps readers turning pages late into the night.
In this episode, Michael shares how a career in global marketing unexpectedly prepared him for the publishing world, why authors today must become marketers, and how the pandemic finally pushed him to write the novel he had always dreamed of creating.
We also dive into:
- Writing thriller fiction and crafting twist endings
- The importance of pacing, cliffhangers, and short chapters
- Literary agents and the modern publishing industry
- Researching real-life detectives, FBI agents, and criminal groups
- The emotional attachment authors develop toward their characters
- Michael’s fascinating family connection to Thomas Edison
- Selling international rights and adapting books for film or streaming
- Advice for aspiring writers trying to break into publishing
Michael also discusses his upcoming thriller You Reap, a prequel to What Goes Around, and shares invaluable writing advice for new and aspiring authors.
If you love thrillers, suspense novels, behind-the-scenes publishing conversations, and discussions about the craft of storytelling, this episode is for you.
Where to find Michael:
#MichaelWendroff #WhatGoesAround #ThrillerAuthor #WritingCommunity #Publishing #SuspenseThriller #BookPodcast #Authors #WritersLife #PlotTwistRadio
00:00:00
Welcome to Plot Twist Radio, the show where creativity,
00:00:03
storytelling, and the unpredictable path of the
00:00:05
creative life all collide. I'm your host, Aaron Eggnatz.
00:00:11
Michael, welcome to the show. Hi, happy to be here.
00:00:16
It's great to have you. Can you introduce yourself to
00:00:18
the audience? Sure, Michael Wendroff, I was a
00:00:22
marketing guy, but I am now happy to say that I am an
00:00:26
author. My debut thriller was published
00:00:30
by Bloomsbury at 1st and hardcover audiobook and e-book,
00:00:35
and just about a month or so ago it was published in paperback as
00:00:39
well. The paperback actually has a
00:00:42
book club discussion guide as part of it because it was very
00:00:45
popular with book clubs and the book was also sold by my agent
00:00:50
in some foreign languages, Italian, Hungarian and Japanese.
00:00:56
And based on the sales and the reviews for my novel What Goes
00:01:00
Around, I've been given a contract for a second thriller
00:01:03
that I'm writing now. That's very exciting.
00:01:06
Congratulations on the success there.
00:01:08
Thank you. You're welcome.
00:01:09
So what actually made you go from marketing to writing?
00:01:14
Well, I always wanted to write a novel.
00:01:17
And you know, it took many, many years.
00:01:20
I had a whole career in marketing working for large
00:01:22
corporations. And then I was running my own
00:01:25
global marketing strategy firm. And then the pandemic hit and
00:01:30
basically there you couldn't do anything else.
00:01:33
I mean, in my town, you couldn't even go to the beach.
00:01:35
I let alone play tennis or go to the movies or eat.
00:01:38
So no more excuses. I finally had to go ahead and do
00:01:41
what I always wanted to do, which is to write a novel.
00:01:44
And, and I did. And actually the impetus for my
00:01:50
novel goes around is what my mother said to me.
00:01:54
These I always put on her chest. She looked deeply into my eyes
00:01:58
and she said, oh, how nice to see you again.
00:02:02
And it was the again part that always intrigued me.
00:02:06
I had to do something with that. And what I did with it is it.
00:02:10
It plays into the major twist ending of my novel.
00:02:14
Very cool, very interesting. So what can you tell us about
00:02:18
what goes wrong? Without giving away spoilers, of
00:02:20
course. Well, it follows these two
00:02:25
detectives who are investigating mysterious shootings in a small
00:02:30
town. The two detectives appeared
00:02:32
together and they hate each other.
00:02:34
One's a a guy like a Jack Reacher type guy, big physical
00:02:37
guy. The other's a a brilliant and
00:02:40
beautiful woman. And eventually, you know,
00:02:43
they're the relationship does change a bit, but they while
00:02:49
investigating these shootings, they enter into these mysterious
00:02:52
worlds of these crazy groups, these in cells and boogaloo boys
00:02:57
and and all these crazies. And there's lots of twists and
00:03:00
turns along the way. And ending with that major twist
00:03:04
ending. It's, you know, it's it goes a
00:03:07
little to a different place than a normal thriller.
00:03:09
So it's like a thriller plus, but it's basically about love,
00:03:13
life and the eternal bonds that transcend time.
00:03:17
That's. Awesome.
00:03:18
So thrillers, you know, they live and die on tension.
00:03:22
What's your approach to building suspense and holding on to that
00:03:26
tension You. Are absolutely right.
00:03:29
And you know, for me, I read a lot in like in this category,
00:03:33
lots of thrillers, lots of mysteries.
00:03:36
So I know what I liked. And the way I incorporate that
00:03:39
into my writing is, first of all, I write very short chapters
00:03:43
because I think that keeps the story moving along for the
00:03:46
reader. And I think, you know,
00:03:48
especially these days with younger readers that, you know,
00:03:51
there's so many competing things for their entertainment dollar
00:03:55
with video games or, you know, even on the websites, the
00:03:59
articles are so short. So, you know, I think that
00:04:01
having short chapters not only helps with the pace, but also is
00:04:04
something that readers today really want.
00:04:08
So that's one thing. And then the other thing I would
00:04:10
say is that I try to end every chapter on a cliffhanger.
00:04:14
It could be a physical one, it could be a psychological
00:04:17
cliffhanger. It can be an emotional one.
00:04:20
And then I strive, I strive to start the next chapter with a
00:04:24
very intriguing sentence. So that's what seems to be
00:04:28
working for me. I mean, all if you look at my
00:04:29
reviews, they all talk about how, you know, can't put it
00:04:32
down, lost sleep, you know, real page Turner.
00:04:34
So that's the kind of book I like to read, and that's the
00:04:37
kind of book I'm happy to have written.
00:04:40
That's, that's a great strategy. And you're right, you know, the,
00:04:44
the shorter chapters I've noticed, you know, they used to
00:04:46
be really long chapters that would, you know, be 234000
00:04:51
words, but now they're much shorter.
00:04:53
And you're right, it helps with the flow of the, the book quite
00:04:56
a bit. I've noticed that with many
00:04:57
authors now. Yeah, absolutely.
00:04:59
So you literally wrote your MBA thesis on marketing and
00:05:04
publishing. How different is the industry
00:05:07
today versus as you were going through college?
00:05:09
Yeah, it is interesting because, you know, it was when I was
00:05:12
getting my MBA from NYU that I first married my love of of
00:05:17
books. I come from a bit of a book
00:05:19
background, but with my new found love of marketing.
00:05:23
And yes, you're right, my thesis was on marketing in the
00:05:27
publishing history. Now this is going back a bit for
00:05:31
sure, but it was it was an interesting experience because I
00:05:35
got to interview a lot of publishing executives.
00:05:37
And in fact, my thesis ended up being excerpted in the trade
00:05:43
journal, which is called Publishers Weekly is the trade
00:05:46
journal for the industry. And they put it in three of
00:05:49
their editions and they actually, you know, paid me.
00:05:54
So I got paid for writing my thesis and that was the first
00:05:57
time I got paid for writing in general.
00:05:59
And, and I like that. I certainly did.
00:06:03
But what I've, you know, certainly, you know, back when I
00:06:05
wrote it, things have changed dramatically.
00:06:08
And I would say that, you know, any, any author today or would
00:06:11
be authors in your audience and they have to know that, you
00:06:14
know, 50% of your job as an author is writing.
00:06:17
The other 50% is pushing your novel.
00:06:21
Because, you know, unless you're Stephen King or Harlan Coven,
00:06:24
you know, it's, it's really up to the authors to do their
00:06:27
selling, their marketing. And you know, I've, I've had a
00:06:33
bit of an advantage because of my background in, you know,
00:06:36
marketing for major corporations and going on sales calls with
00:06:39
the salespeople. So, you know, for example, if
00:06:44
I'll go to local author, then I'll look how many and the table
00:06:48
will have other authors and the authors are sitting behind the
00:06:51
table in their chair. I'm out front pushing my book
00:06:54
and I sell out all the time. And, you know, I understand
00:06:57
authors, a lot of authors tend to be and introverted, but you
00:07:00
know that that's my marketing background that helps.
00:07:03
But I, you know, encourage all of your authors to to go out
00:07:07
there and, and push for everything.
00:07:08
And the more you do it, the easier it comes.
00:07:11
So, you know, go on, you know, great podcasts like yours, you
00:07:15
know, push with local media. I've been able to get local
00:07:18
newspaper articles, features about myself, local magazine.
00:07:21
I was on the cover. But you gotta, it takes a lot of
00:07:25
work. You got to be willing to put in
00:07:27
the work, and if you do it, you can be successful.
00:07:30
Yes, absolutely. And that is very, very
00:07:32
important. As you said, unless you're one
00:07:35
of the big, big time authors, it's hard.
00:07:38
It is a hard industry because there's so many books out there.
00:07:42
You know, every day there's hundreds that come out.
00:07:45
So you get lost in the weeds very quickly.
00:07:48
I think 12 million is the number that Amazon had published last
00:07:52
year. Oh my gosh, that's that's even
00:07:54
more than I thought. Well, there you go.
00:07:58
So yeah, marketing is key there. So you've worked with some big
00:08:03
names. What did you absorb from being
00:08:06
around writers at that level? Well, I mean, this is going back
00:08:09
in into my history again, you know, my mother, besides, you
00:08:14
know, giving me the images for that novel when I was born.
00:08:17
She actually remarried A literary agent, Henry Morrison.
00:08:23
And you know, for those in your audience who don't know that
00:08:26
much about literary agents, literary agents are are the key
00:08:30
people in publishing today, at least if you want to, you know,
00:08:32
get published by a traditional publisher.
00:08:35
So, you know, having the option to self publish is great, but in
00:08:37
terms of traditional publishing, you need an agent publishers,
00:08:41
when I look at your manuscript, unless it comes through a
00:08:43
literary agent and you know, agents will do many things for
00:08:47
you if you're able to get one. I mean, that's the first thing,
00:08:50
which I, I really believe that it's harder to get a literary
00:08:53
agent to take you on is to sell your book once you have a
00:08:57
literary agent. So the tough part is getting 1
00:08:59
and you got to query a lot of agents go through all that.
00:09:02
But once you have them, you know, they'll, a lot of the
00:09:04
agents are actually your first editor.
00:09:06
You can be on your family, etcetera.
00:09:07
So they will give you know, ideas on on your book that will
00:09:11
make it better. So for them to represent to
00:09:13
publishers and then, you know, they'll sell additional rights.
00:09:17
I mentioned what you know, foreign rights that were sold to
00:09:20
what goes around and you know, if you're lucky enough to get a
00:09:23
publisher to publish you, they'll negotiate the contract
00:09:26
of course, and take you through all the contract details and all
00:09:29
of that. So, so they are key.
00:09:32
And, you know, for me, you know, growing up with a literary age
00:09:37
and as a stepfather, he specialized in the categories I
00:09:41
liked and mysteries and thrillers.
00:09:45
So I got to read all those for free and to meet a lot of
00:09:51
authors. In fact, you know, there was
00:09:53
this one time when I was young and we were invited to stay over
00:09:58
at Robert Ludlum's winter home in Saint Thomas.
00:10:01
And Robert Ludlum, a lot of people know him from the born
00:10:05
identity, the Matt Damon movies. So, you know, he wrote his slow
00:10:08
best selling books. And I remember waking up 1
00:10:11
morning and getting going up early to the living room where
00:10:16
he was sitting and he had a, a yellow legal pad out and a #2
00:10:20
Daikon Taikon Kondoroga pencil. And he was scribbling away.
00:10:25
And that's how he wrote his 450 page novels by hand.
00:10:29
And I could not believe it. I mean, thank God, you know, I
00:10:32
admire his, his prose and his plot, but good thing when it
00:10:37
came time for me to write mine, I had APCI could not do that for
00:10:41
sure. But it, it was very cool meeting
00:10:45
a lot of authors. And you know what I found in
00:10:47
general that authors are the nicest people.
00:10:50
And you know, as a as a group, they're not in competition with
00:10:53
each other at all. They're always very helpful.
00:10:56
So, so it's a, it's a great world being among them for sure.
00:11:00
I agree. I agree.
00:11:01
Authors are much different than some of the other people in the
00:11:06
entertainment industry. I guess that the authors are in
00:11:09
the entertainment industry. I guess they are.
00:11:10
But yes, they are usually very kind and very supportive of one
00:11:15
another and I love that about the community.
00:11:17
For sure. So your book, as you were saying
00:11:21
it, it got international rights already.
00:11:23
That's awesome. Did you expect that kind of
00:11:26
reach right out of the gate? I hoped for it because, you
00:11:31
know, growing up in a literary age and background, I, you know,
00:11:34
when I was going to college and working there part time, I was
00:11:38
in charge of selling foreign rights or helping with that.
00:11:41
So, so I knew about it was a possibility, but I was very
00:11:45
happy because it's these days it's more and more unusual.
00:11:48
So I was thrilled for. So I have to ask because I'm a
00:11:54
historian, so this is something that is very intriguing to me.
00:11:58
Your great grandfather worked with Thomas Edison.
00:12:01
That is quite intriguing because I, my, when I was getting my
00:12:05
master's degree, I was actually transcribing a lot of letters
00:12:09
and correspondence for Thomas Edison.
00:12:11
So I'm curious what your great grandfather did.
00:12:15
Yeah, it was very cool. He was at the University of
00:12:18
Copenhagen in Denmark and he was in doing research there.
00:12:23
And I'm not sure exactly how the connection was made, but you
00:12:27
know, Thomas Edison brought him over to work with his in his New
00:12:30
Jersey labs. And then so that's where my
00:12:34
mother was born in in New Jersey in South Orange, where the labs
00:12:37
were. And my grandfather holds some
00:12:41
pens, including for great grandfather, including for
00:12:46
plastic buttons. So he was actually known as the
00:12:48
button king around town after he made a lot of money off of
00:12:52
buttons, which his son lost. But but I proudly try and wear
00:12:57
button down shirts. So getting back to your book, if
00:13:01
What Goes Around became a movie tomorrow, who's your Dreamcast
00:13:05
boy? I don't know, I'd have to say
00:13:12
maybe, maybe Matt Damon is, is the the Jack detective, although
00:13:19
the guy that there's ATV series of of Lee Child's Jack Reacher
00:13:23
and the guy that plays Reacher in that he'd he'd be a pretty
00:13:26
good one too. So, yeah, I don't that's that's
00:13:33
a that's a tough one. It's a good question.
00:13:35
I have to give some more thought to that.
00:13:36
And you know, I'm that would certainly be the dream for
00:13:40
something being made into the movies.
00:13:41
I do have some feelers out there.
00:13:44
So we'll, we'll keep our fingers crossed and we'll, we'll see.
00:13:48
You, you have the perfect story for Hollywood.
00:13:51
So I, I think that I, I hope it ends up happening for you
00:13:54
because it would be a great movie or mini series, I don't
00:13:57
know. A lot of people do say that mini
00:14:00
series would be terrific, you know, Netflix or Prime, Yeah.
00:14:03
Yeah, and they're really getting into the books right now.
00:14:06
I've noticed a lot of people. I've noticed a lot of
00:14:08
correspondence about that. I see it pop up on all the,
00:14:12
like, media things. And I'm like, oh, maybe I should
00:14:14
pitch one of my books, but I'm just too afraid.
00:14:17
Go for it. Yeah, why not?
00:14:18
What's the worst? I could say no, but so you
00:14:22
mentioned that you signed on for another book.
00:14:26
Is that what's up next for you? Yes, yes.
00:14:29
So my publisher did offer me a contract seeing the sales and
00:14:31
reviews of what goes around. And this book is actually a
00:14:35
prequel, so it does have and I just finished the first draft.
00:14:39
So it does have the two main characters from what goes
00:14:42
around, the two main detectives. It's kind of fun for me to to
00:14:46
put in the little, little bread crumbs as to what happens and
00:14:49
what goes around to see them in this book.
00:14:51
So it's been really cool. Tentative name is you reap, as
00:14:55
in you reap what you sow. So first one was what goes
00:14:58
around, which I love the name because I think in the consumers
00:15:01
mind and the reader's mind, they immediately say, you know, what
00:15:05
goes around comes around. So they complete the thought and
00:15:08
you've made it a connection in their brains, you know, right
00:15:11
from the start. So we have what goes around and
00:15:14
then you reap, which also, you know, also has kind of A and if
00:15:19
I call it a spiritual part in the twist ending, but somewhere
00:15:24
in that realm and then in you reap, it's actually a, a life, a
00:15:29
near death experience that happens in in the twist.
00:15:33
But it's fun. And you know, I really enjoy the
00:15:36
whole writing process so much. I mean, for me, you know,
00:15:40
writing is really in three parts.
00:15:43
So the first part for me is to do the plotting, come up with
00:15:49
the big ideas. I, I could never do that.
00:15:52
I, I just need to know what's the twisted, the ending going to
00:15:56
be? What are the twists along the
00:15:58
way that are going to happen? What are my character arcs going
00:16:01
to be? I just need to to know all that
00:16:03
before I can start writing. And you know, it's not like the
00:16:07
writing doesn't evolve. It it does.
00:16:10
I mean, there was this time when I was writing what goes around,
00:16:13
and it called for one of the characters to be killed off.
00:16:18
And I gotten to really like this character.
00:16:21
I really enjoyed him. Yeah.
00:16:23
You know, we had some good conversations.
00:16:25
And yes, you know, am I crazy? These characters are talking to
00:16:28
me. Yeah, I am.
00:16:30
But So what I did then is I had my plot that I had to change my
00:16:35
plot because I couldn't kill off this character was I couldn't do
00:16:39
it. But then similar thing happened
00:16:41
and you know, there was another person who, you know, came time
00:16:45
in the book that this one was supposed to be killed.
00:16:47
And this one, you know, the plot in the storyline, I do it even
00:16:51
though I really love for the whole next week my wife is
00:16:54
saying, why are you so depressed?
00:16:56
Why are you walking around? They're like crazy.
00:17:00
This character's not real. But you know, to the authors as
00:17:03
you know, these characters are real.
00:17:06
So, you know, free number one is plotting and then the second is
00:17:10
doing the research. And you know, when I wrote what
00:17:13
goes around, you know, AI didn't exist.
00:17:17
So it was Googling a million articles and learning because,
00:17:21
you know, my my book deals with these some of these crazy
00:17:26
groups, as well as there's stuff on guns and I didn't know
00:17:29
anything about any of that. So there was a lot of research.
00:17:32
But what I found is that the best kind of research is talking
00:17:37
to the people and actually do the things that are like what
00:17:40
the characters in your book are doing.
00:17:41
So, you know, I was lucky in my community.
00:17:44
I got to talk with FBI agents. I got to talk to chief of
00:17:49
police. Importantly, my town has a
00:17:54
female detective and I got to talk to her and she was and
00:17:57
that's very important for my book.
00:17:58
That's a key character and she was great.
00:18:01
And she told me so many anecdotes and insider info that
00:18:05
made it into my book is terrific.
00:18:08
So, you know, talking to those type of people is is the best
00:18:11
kind of research. Now, I don't think I spoke to
00:18:15
any serial killers, but who knows?
00:18:20
You may have. It you didn't know it, there are
00:18:24
some walking around, there are some walking around.
00:18:27
And then the third part is the actual writing.
00:18:30
Of course, my process is really just to unlike you say, the, the
00:18:33
story, just get the story moving.
00:18:36
Don't worry about the writing itself.
00:18:38
You know, certainly not grammar or punctuation, but not even the
00:18:40
words or the flow. Nothing, nothing like that.
00:18:42
And then I will let you know, let's say it's day 2.
00:18:45
I'll go back and I'll review what I had scribbled out the day
00:18:48
before and that's when I'll try and make it into real writing.
00:18:52
That's when I'll make sure every sentence fits with these others
00:18:56
in the paragraph and every word in the sentence fits with the
00:18:58
other words. And I'll add the metaphors and
00:19:01
add the analogies. Then a bit of poetry and some to
00:19:05
some degree. So it's, you know, that's that's
00:19:09
where the real writing comes in. And then when I'm done with
00:19:12
that, I'll scribble away my PC the next section and review
00:19:16
that. So that's, you know, that's the
00:19:18
process every day. Scribble it out, Refine,
00:19:21
scribble it out. Until of course, I can write my
00:19:24
two favorite words, which are the end.
00:19:29
Love that, love that. So where can the audience find
00:19:33
you? So my books are in bookstores,
00:19:36
but you could also get them online the Amazon.com and I do
00:19:40
have a website, michaelwendroff.com.
00:19:43
And you know, if there are would be writers or you're just people
00:19:48
who read my book that have questions.
00:19:50
My e-mail address is is on my website and I respond to every
00:19:53
e-mail. I get budding writers out there.
00:19:56
I'd love to help. I mean, if, if and if you do
00:19:58
have an, an audience of, of aspiring writers in there, you
00:20:01
know, a quick piece of advice would be that, you know, besides
00:20:05
reading in your genre, which is key, don't always, I always make
00:20:09
sure I certainly see what's on the best sell list and read
00:20:11
those so I keep in tune with tastes.
00:20:16
But, and I also encourage you to write every day, even if it's
00:20:20
for 5 minutes because there is this continuity you get into
00:20:24
with the whole experience. But also, you know, there's this
00:20:27
craft to writing. So, you know, make sure you
00:20:30
learn your craft, numerous ways to do that.
00:20:34
You can join writers groups if you have one, but you can also
00:20:37
take online courses. There are plenty.
00:20:39
I took, I think it was from B took a course from James
00:20:42
Patterson, from Harlan Coben and from Lee Child.
00:20:45
And, you know, they were great. You know, there's like 15
00:20:48
episodes and they'll they'll teach different aspects of
00:20:51
writing and they don't always agree, but that's fine too.
00:20:55
You can, you know, learn what works for you.
00:20:58
And, you know, the last thing I'd say is there are a lot of
00:21:02
conferences of different categories that you that you may
00:21:06
be interested in. So for example, I'm heading off
00:21:09
to Thriller Fest in New York City, which is a thriller
00:21:11
writers conference. And at that, you know, besides
00:21:14
the the social events, which are very important to, you know,
00:21:17
make your contacts, but you know, there's a few days of of
00:21:23
like mini seminars, like hour sessions on different aspects of
00:21:26
writing, you know, perspective and tense and what to do with
00:21:30
the middle of your book and all of that kind of thing.
00:21:33
So any aspiring writers out there practice aircraft?
00:21:39
Absolutely excellent advice, Excellent advice, and I know
00:21:42
that there are a lot of aspiring writers that are listening
00:21:46
because I get messages about it all the time.
00:21:48
So that is excellent advice. Thank you and thank you for
00:21:51
joining me. This has been a great
00:21:53
conversation. Absolutely a lot of fun.