Daniel Mark Grace: Reimagining Judas, Pontius Pilate & History’s Greatest Crime

[00:00:00] Welcome to Plot Twist Radio, the show where creativity, storytelling and the unpredictable path of the creative life all collide. I'm your host Erin Egnatz Hi Daniel, welcome to Plot Twist Radio Amazing to be here. Thank you for having me on this beautiful dramatic Sunday wherever you are Well it's great to have you. Before we get going can you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:00:25] Daniel Grace Sure, my name is Daniel Grace. I'm a winemaker by day, author by night, based out of Tuscany in Italy, hence the stone walls behind me. It looks like it's like a background, like a CGI background, but it's an old Tuscan farmhouse. Very cool. I'm very jealous. I love that. I've always wanted to go there. I've even been taking Italian. I'm not doing very good in it to be honest. We should we could do, we'll do the next one in Italian for sure.

[00:00:53] Let's do it. But for now, so your career has gone from, like you said, advertising to winemaking and Tuscany awesome to writing. Looking back, does that path make perfect sense to you or did it surprise you along the way? You know, I think like every life, it's a pretty complicated path. But I think, you know, kind of the kind of the core trait ultimately is, you know, I'm a mythologist. And so whether it's my background in advertising, I had an advertising agency.

[00:01:23] Whether it's wine making, kind of capturing the essence of time and place and fruit and soil or writing a dark, bloody, violent book. I think it's, you know, I think that that common thread really is sort of mythology. Right. I'm a storyteller by trade. And whether it's, you know, global banking brands and in the ad space or whether it's, you know, Tuscan wines or whether it's sort of a reimagining of a biblical tale.

[00:01:51] I think ultimately it's, you know, in my heart, I sort of mythology is my sandbox. Gotcha. And let's talk about the mythology with the biblical tale, because this was very, very interesting to me because, you know, as a Christian growing up that, you know, we've heard the stories, but we've never really heard different takes on it. So what drew you in that direction?

[00:02:15] You know, the for me, kind of the genesis, pun intended, of this story, it started with kind of an examination of kind of the loss and the death of legend as we kind of concluded the last century and kind of came headbore into the digital age.

[00:02:35] I was curious and became a little bit fascinated that these sort of mythological and mystical characters of Greek mythology, of Roman mythology, of Shakespeare, of classic literature, and even of comic book heroes. Right. Sort of these these superheroes and antiheroes that had become kind of our compass of for good and evil.

[00:02:55] Right. And oftentimes from a pop culture perspective or from a from an art perspective in the Renaissance or even from a musical perspective, these figures always played such a significant role generation to generation. And more recently, I was just curious as to, you know, why this sort of this this legend. Right. It seemed there was sort of this death of legend.

[00:03:20] It became more irrelevant because it was replaced by real fallible people and kind of mirrors. Right. The digital age. It's about, you know, it's about my voice and my compass and my ethos as opposed to maybe something something bigger for better and for worse. So and I'm getting to your question. So this initial kind of study about sort of this loss of legend was a story in my mind. And it was really just this sort of the death of hero and antihero.

[00:03:47] And as I gathered these these cast of characters for awake of this sort of culmination of of mythical and mystical heroes and antiheroes, one of the characters that I had assembled was this character of Judas Iscariot, who's, you know, in many ways kind of cast as the ultimate villain.

[00:04:05] And I then just became somewhat obsessed about the fate of Judas and kind of the two dimensionality of his reality. And it was fascinating. There's there's there's kind of a Mandela effect when it when it comes to Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate. I think you you say the terms right. And they're kind of taboo terms that have become these abstract adjectives, these sort of violent, villainous verbs.

[00:04:33] And and and yet sort of their their timeless tumble through history. And, you know, they've been they've been lynched by by religion and by culture and by history. And and in considering what happened atop Calvary Hill and Golgotha 2000 years ago, you know, I was just curious as to if this was indeed fated by by scripture.

[00:04:56] And this act had to happen on top of this this this this hill Calvary Hill and this this violent act of crucifixion. And, you know, why is it that these these two souls have been, you know, forever damned when in many ways they simply enabled this pivotal event?

[00:05:14] So hence the hence the curiosity. And I think for me, the opportunity to kind of reimagine their tale and and and not necessarily kind of play with sort of the taboo of sort of biblical events and sort of set them in in modern day New York City with sort of whispers and echoes back to ancient Rome and ancient Jerusalem. And that's the story I set out to write.

[00:05:42] Very interesting. And what really caught my eye was that it's described as more of a crime novel, which I found very interesting. Can you tell the audience a little bit about that? Sure. I mean, so in thinking about. Again, this this this crucifixion that was a standard method of capital punishment back in the day that predated Christ by quite some time that still exists today.

[00:06:08] You know, it was really kind of an assessment of kind of the ultimate capital punishment. Right. The crucifixion of Christ and and looking at the cast of characters again who prosecuted it, who enabled it and who, you know, rewrote and redefined history to the point that we reset the calendar. And so in terms of sort of this being a story of it really is a story of crime and punishment. Right. It's it's the ultimate crime and punishment.

[00:06:37] And there's a sense of, you know, we we deem these two characters. Certainly Judas is the criminal. And we deem pilot kind of as the punisher. And yet it's it's their souls and their curse and their damnation that that really is the punishment. And there's a kind of a pivotal line in the book and that sort of flashes back to the original encounter where they sort of express to each other that there is no crime to fit the sentence and there's no sentence to fit this crime.

[00:07:04] And so what I also wanted to do in setting this tale in modern day New York City is is also examine the many ways the dark, bloody, parallel history and kind of the parallel relationship of of religion and capital punishment, even down to the acts that occur in an execution chamber.

[00:07:28] Even just the roots of a jury of 12 going back to the number 12, the ultimate jury of the apostles and the disciples. And so it's a fascinating history that we think there's a separation of a church and state when it comes to capital punishment.

[00:07:44] And, you know, it's, you know, as old as going back to Eden in terms of man's original sin, just sort of this man's mankind's relationship with with capital punishment and guilt and sin and God. And so this story in many ways, and I'm talking a lot, so I apologize.

[00:08:03] But it's, you know, it's really a tale of of every man's journey of their own violent, dark, bloody hill to whatever pinnacle they're they're seeking. And it's really about sort of the the hopelessness and the sorrow and the guilt and the pain and the hope and the belief and the fate and the choices that we carry up that hill.

[00:08:27] And it's a question of what do we do when we when we get to our proverbial top and how do we release ourselves from kind of the the the bonds that the burden us? Yeah, it's pretty heady stuff for, you know, Sunday morning in Chicago where you are. Yeah, we should have. I feel like we should have a glass of wine while we talk about these things. I agree completely. Very, very true. But, you know, it is heavy, but it's also something that gets you thinking.

[00:08:56] And those are to me are the best reads where I can really think, you know, I don't want sometimes I want to escape into a mindless story, you know, because we all do. But those that make me think, of course, you know, they they really they take you places. I swear that they expand the mind. I love that. And I try and get my students to do that, too. But that's a work in progress as well.

[00:09:16] Right. So as a historian myself, I'm always fascinated by the people history reduces to basically a single sentence. Was part of your motivation giving complexity back to these people? We spent 2000 years possibly simplifying. For sure. I mean, I think that's a great question. So, you know, again, as I mentioned before, I was so fascinated about, you know, and first and kind of becoming interested and curious and obsessed with these two characters.

[00:09:45] You know, I was a little bit overwhelmed about, OK, this is going to be a pretty hairy kind of history to unravel. And then, you know, one of the many fascinating things about sort of this process was when you kind of dig deep into the research and into the history, you know, before the poetic license and the storytelling, what I came to find. And again, hence sort of this Mandela effect was was how there is so little written and so little known about these two casts of characters.

[00:10:15] Right. About Pontius and and about Pilot. I'm sorry, about Pilot and Judas Iscariot in particular. But in many ways, many of these characters who enabled Christ's rise on that fateful day and whether it's whether it's Mary Magdalene, whether it's whether it's Lazarus, whether it's Caiaphas, there's whether it's Longinus, the centurion who stood on top Calvary Hill and lanced Christ. These these characters, it's interesting. It's almost they they exist.

[00:10:45] They exist almost as ghosts. Historically speaking, they they appear quite briefly in this chapter. And their history has either been vanished. It's not even a question of it's being it's been rewritten. It's just doesn't exist. You know, there's and this is more of more of a my generation thing, but it's sort of like the usual suspects, you know, the great 90s movie. It's like they've all become these sort of Kaiser Sosers who just disappear into the realm of past and present and future.

[00:11:15] And yet they carry, you know, such weight, their names. And again, that sense of having to kind of deconstruct what I thought I knew to only find out. And I just simply had to deconstruct that so little is known. And so to me, there was an opportunity to explore context and and and to to give sort of three dimensionality to what led them to Calvary Hill, what led them to Gethsemane, what led Pilate to Jerusalem?

[00:11:45] What what led Judas Iscariot to follow Christ to Jerusalem? And so what I what I found to discover that was incredibly liberating was it was kind of a kind of a blank canvas, which was great from a from a writing perspective. I was like, oh, my goodness. Thank God I didn't have to I didn't have to contradict a lot of history to make my story.

[00:12:03] But yet it's such an interesting I mean, I would say I struggle to name two other very living historical characters who without a shadow of a doubt existed and had a significant impact on history. How little is known? I mean, there's a there's a first a first century Jewish historian, Josephus, who kind of barely mentions both of them.

[00:12:31] But for the first hundred years after this this event, the crucifixion atop Calvary Hill, these characters just aren't spoken of. And so, again, to me, it's a question of is it and again, someone who's, you know, wears a cross around my around my neck that hang near to my heart and grew up a Catholic. Like I was curious as to is this more of kind of a convenient narrative?

[00:12:59] And, you know, this is should this have all been a real cast of characters and this was a real event as violent as it as it could possibly be a crucifixion. And, you know, then I think. Those who played a role, those other cast of characters who are more than just supporting characters, you know, deserve to be dimensionalized and given context. And what was Pilate's ambition that we talk of, you know, Pilate's weakness? Well, what what was that weakness?

[00:13:28] What why why did he do what he did? Why why did Judas Iscariot, you know, in many ways have the hardest possible job to knowingly betray his brother? And yet it was written. It had to happen. And so to me, again, it's just it's just a fascinating case of of, you know, as I again, I use the word earlier. But just these these these two souls that have, you know, again, strong word, you know, truly have been lynched.

[00:13:57] You look at, you know, I'm here living in Italy and surrounded by Renaissance art. And and, you know, the the the depictions and the portrayals of of Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate are pretty universal and they're very two dimensional. And again, they they they they fit the narrative that served to fulfill the ultimate rise. But they've only fallen since.

[00:14:21] And I just found I found great, I think, kind of curiosity and ultimately kind of despair in trying to, you know, I'm not challenging biblical narrative. And this is not an original thought, right? You look at, you know, I was deeply inspired by Nikos Kazantzakis, Last Temptation of Christ. Right. This sort of this sympathetic view of Judas, who's, you know, absolutely had had the harder job. And, you know, you look at even in pop culture, right?

[00:14:49] Jesus Christ Superstar, you know, similar sort of sympathetic view of both Pilate and and and Judas. And so, again, this is this isn't a novel idea. Yeah. It's it's really just a question of, you know, of course, history is written by the by the victors. Yet there's there's just I think for such a pivotal moment. It's worth a consideration. It's worth a reimagination.

[00:15:18] And it's worth sort of considering, you know, their damnation, which brings them to present day and and sort of what would happen if they were to sort of encounter each other 2000 years after this event. And perhaps it's only through each other and recognizing sort of their actions and sort of the struggle of fate versus choice and damnation versus salvation.

[00:15:46] Could they kind of come to terms with how history is deemed them? Yes, I agree. And that kind of leads me into my next question. As a writer, was it difficult to make readers empathize with these people that history has taught us to distrust? Yeah. So great, great question. So, you know, I came into it, you know, I don't want to say sympathizing with these characters, but just curious.

[00:16:11] And so to me, it was I wasn't trying to paint a picture where, hey, these are these two guys got screwed by history. And, you know, let's break out the violins and let's throw them a party. It's really more of, you know, kind of, again, giving them context and and and giving them families and giving them, you know, loss and pain and tragedy and hope. And ambition and rage and weakness and strength. And in doing so, absolutely humanize them.

[00:16:40] And so I think in writing it, what I wanted to do was was not necessarily have readers root for these characters. But there was a sense of wanting to have readers kind of reconsider what they did 2000 years ago. And perhaps, you know, this is also a story of second chances and and and, you know, give them an opportunity to have a second chance.

[00:17:06] And whether that second chance is to rest, you know, kind of the Hamlet and sort of let us sleep now type of thing or or, you know, just again. There's so much about this story that's taboo, right? The word crucifixion, it kind of it stings on its way out. It's something that we we barely mutter, yet alone say. And yet again, so many of us, billions of souls have worn the symbol of peace around our neck, but we don't necessarily consider the violence of the act.

[00:17:36] And it's and I think when it comes to Pontius and Judas, you know, again, it has that same sort of taboo. It's like whispering Macbeth in a theater, right? You just it's you don't you're going to be cursed just by saying it. So to me, it was just a question of kind of just giving them their due and acknowledging that these were real fallible men. And it's just interesting. Yes, it is. It absolutely is.

[00:18:05] So as readers close the book, what do you hope that they come away feeling or thinking? I think, you know, to me, it's there's so much about the story, right? This is this is sort of a story of the ego and the id. And I'm also a student of Samuel Beckett. And again, I'll get to your question, because as a as a student of Beckett, inspired by Waiting for Godot, you know, the story of ego, id strength and weakness.

[00:18:34] You know, there's an I had an interesting aha moment in writing this story about Judas and Pilate and kind of that that two sides to every soul. And there was a minute there. I thought, you know, if if I'm sure Freud would have would have, you know, had a had a field day with this and all of a sudden started thinking, is this just an analogy of the struggle of the soul? And is it as simple as that? Right. Because these two characters have incredible balance in terms of strength and weakness.

[00:19:00] And and so part of the takeaway, you know, it is in that sense of there's there's two sides to every soul. There's there's two sides to every story, which as, you know, a student of literature and a student of history, you know, every other book and tale and event is afforded sort of the the the luxury of sort of that duality. Except this one. And again, I'm not I'm not challenging. I'm defuting it to me.

[00:19:28] This is coming from a faith affirming faith. And it's sort of made my faith, I think, have greater dimensionality. So I'm not looking to poke holes. But again, I think part of the takeaway is, you know, not to make this the exception to the rule. Of course, there's two sides to the story and just sort of that that reexamination.

[00:19:49] And again, going back to kind of the inspiration of of of Cousin Zaka's Last Temptation of Christ is that that was the book that, you know, my kind of epiphany that made me realize that, you know, even the greatest story ever told. Right. Often the greatest story ever sold. You know, that's fair game. There's there's it was written by man. It was enabled by man. It is followed feverishly by man.

[00:20:16] And so it should be afforded that same, I think, kind of commitment of those two sides. And so, you know, again, so to me, it's it's that duality and to not simplify. Right. We live in an age where religion is is is used with sort of a single dimensionality for political purposes, for for warfare.

[00:20:39] And for things that that I think, again, if if if if we were cautious and we kind of afforded it the same lens that we do everything else, it could still achieve incredible things and take us to incredible places. But it's a thoughtful discourse. Yes. Very well said. Very well said. So where can the listeners find you and your work?

[00:21:04] So, well, obviously, they have to come to Tuscany, you know, come come to my winery, Il Molino de Grace. Nice. So online Instagram, Daniel Mark Grace and my my website, Daniel Mark Grace as well. The book is widely available and booksellers, both online and traditional retailers. So, you know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble books and more all that good stuff. So widely available. The audio book is on Audible and Spotify and all of that.

[00:21:33] And so it's it's fun that it's out in the world. That's been quite a journey. I had I think I had a lot of hair when I started this process. Well, I will make sure all of that is in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me. It was an absolute pleasure.